Comments

# Shade said on February 6, 2007 9:49 AM:

Dealer qualifications are tough to set up for drop shippers. The very reason drop shippers are drop shippers is to cut down on overhead and run a business on a shoestring.

Most distributors require at least a minimum opening order. The majority will also continue to require a minimum order albeit a smaller amount. If someone is not going to be a stocking dealer, they have no need for a large opening order.

Still, I see few other ways to qualify new dealers. It is all about the money. Someone not willing or able to make at least some investment in their company is unlikely to be a good customer for Valor.

I've seen many complaints in the forums that wouldn't be problems if dealers would stock product. The drop shippers expect Valor to do all the work, including providing pictures and descriptions, stocking product, invoicing, packing, and shipping. And Valor  bends over backward to accommodate them. This is why Valor is flooded with this kind of customer.

Is it good or bad for Valor? I don't know, but if the bulk of Valor's business is still stocking dealers, those dealers can't be happy with Valor making it so easy for the drop shippers to undercut them. This means Valor is catering to the minority of their customers to the detriment of the majority.

And it seems with the further lowering of the drop ship fees, Valor is continuing on that course. I was happy to see that the last few orders we placed were shipped no later than the following day. Yesterday we placed an order that actually shipped the same day. I'm afraid that sort of shipping turnaround may be doomed to be short lived.

# Ben said on February 6, 2007 10:02 AM:

Shade, it won't be a problem any more. We are totally separating the drop ships from the rest of the orders for picking and shipping. This has been our biggest problem. One will not interfere with the other any more. What you say about images and descriptions is so true. That's why I refer to people buying a book. I have seen cut and paste comments from new customers all asking the same thing, word for word. One being about images and descriptions. An opening order is a possiblity, though I really am looking to disect their website and see what they are all about. If a large, established fishing website were to come along and want to set up an account, I wouldn't blink. But if someone comes along and sells candles and now wants to sell fishing products, I want to stop it. Right now I am looking for a real website, with real people answering a phone and email in a timely fasion, a phone number on the website.

# Shade said on February 6, 2007 10:20 AM:

Ben, the news about separating the orders is very welcome. Thank you. And I didn't even think about the website angle in regard to a phone number and prompt e-mail response. I guess that's why you get paid the big bucks.

# Ted Koppel said on February 6, 2007 10:50 AM:

Ben, Thanks for recognizing the difficulty associated with the former drop ship fees. I totally agree with with the new set up. Hurray! Shade has some good points but is not totally unenlightened on the cost of building and maintaining an ecommerce store. I have personally spent in excess of $14,000 and 5 months of learning and web building. I, have not published yet (nor taken in the first dollar) because I will not until my site is fully loaded with product priced properly, not cheaply! And I wish with good images and descriptions, however they are still some what sparse at Valor compared to my drop shipper for fishing electronics. I hope that will improve as well. Shade, as for ecommerce competing with brick and mortar with less overhead you are correct, but there is plenty of room and need for both. I doubt any of us will effect your established store. But we might take a little of Cabela's, ***'s, EAngler's or some of the others. Ben, I don't think I need to tell you you are riding the wave of the future in commerce. There is a growing number of consumers turning to the web stores for convenience and savings. I hope to capture a bit of them and still have time to go fishing. P.S. You'll find all your requirements on my site when it is published and I will encourage and look forward to your scrutinizing it. You have already offered some good advise. Thanks, Ted

# Robert said on February 6, 2007 1:44 PM:

What percentage do you consider Cut Throat Prices?

Wow Ted thats a lot of money to spend on start up costs.  Or are you also a store front?

Drop Shippers also fill a nitch for hard to get to places.  I have quiite a few customers who are military and I am sending to their FPO/APO.  I have one regular customer who is stationed in Cuba and Drop shipping is the only way he can get fishing gear at a rasonable price.  You should see the pictures of some of the fish he has caught.

For dealer qualifications I think a good place to start would be to limit the number of new people you allow in by coming up with some sort of criteria.  Right now I bet you get a lot of people that sign up and are only around for a few months or less.  Since I started with Valor years ago I have seen dozens and dozens of on line stores come and go that are carrying your products.  The just above cost people canot afford to stay in business to long.

Just 3 weeks ago I found someone who was selling at what I figureed was a 1.5% markup and their shipping was not inflated.  Well that is plain stupid as card processing fees are higher than that.  That site is gone now.

Robert

# Shade said on February 6, 2007 2:48 PM:

Ted,

You misunderstood my post. I do not have a brick and mortar store. I have a website (three actually) and I'm well versed in what it takes to open a site. I can set up an efficient web site for an initial investment of a couple hundred dollars and maintain it for $50 a month. I've been doing it for years. Sure, you can spend a lot more, but it isn't necessary. Driving traffic to one's site is the trick and can be expensive.

The difference between us and the drop shippers is that our overhead is greater because we stock our products, buy packing materials, and pay more for our product in the form of incoming shipping charges. We also have more time invested in the form of invoicing, packing, and shipping.

So, yes, the drop shippers who are lowballing their prices because all they have to do is take two minutes to enter their order info into a form on Valor's site do hurt our sales because we can't compete pricewise.

# Ted said on February 6, 2007 3:33 PM:

Shade, Guess I did misunderstand your store type, because you sounded like a brick and mortar. Now I can't understand why you continue to stock, wrap and ship when you could drop ship without the hassle?

# Shade said on February 6, 2007 4:33 PM:

Ted,

Two words. Customer service.

We control the shipping which means we can guarantee shipping schedules. We can answer questions regarding the shipping without hoping that Valor can live up to what we promise.

We know when an item is in stock, because we can see it on the shelf. No wondering whether Valor's stock level is correct.

Hands on inspection of the product. We can give the product a quick look see before sending it out. Helps cut down on returns and makes for happier customers.

Product knowledge. Because we don't try to sell all gazillion products that Valor stocks, we can be familiar with what we do sell. If a customer has a question about size, weight, color, or anything else that may require that we be able to actually handle the product, we can answer that question.

We are not trying to simply be a middle man for Valor. Nor are we short sighted enough to put all our eggs in one basket. We have several distributors. We have three or four distributors for most of our top selling items because at any given moment someone is out of something.

# Kris Kibak said on February 6, 2007 6:12 PM:

Ouch :).  I think I'd be about $14,000 poorer is this were implemented back in 2003.  Oh well, I love Valor too much to complain :).

# Lawrence said on February 6, 2007 11:18 PM:

Ben,

Good to see you're being flexible and trying to make some accomodations but it would seem the smaller fee would be easier to absorb with smaller orders and vice versa but I know you're trying to cover costs.

In regards to requirements for being a dropship customer I think you could require them to submit all website URLs and / or E-Bay, auction type site usernames on file with you and they could only sell your products using those usernames and URLs. I also think a MAP of some sort should apply but not just to the dropship customers. I am in the process of doing year end but it looks like my GPM was around 40% when you include freight collected and paid. I use a sliding scale with lower priced items getting a higher profit margin as I charge a flat shipping fee based on order value for UPS Ground.

After awhile I think it could even become kind of self policing where if someone sees a product you sell below the MAP they could contact Valor for further investigation. (In case they are using a different supplier) Just some thoughts.

# David said on February 7, 2007 11:45 AM:

Good to see that you are receptive to our needs. Many thanks in that reguard. A lot of suppliers wouldn't have taken the time. Requirements for drop shipping is a tricky business indeed. While the nickel and dimers are a bit of a drag, I have personally built many businesses up from nothing to a respectable income and in the process, I needed the ability to drop ship even though we weren't making much money for the supplier or ourselves for a couple months. That's a risky investment on your end if you are losing money, I know. I hope that the fee will now hedge your risks a bit more. Cutting people out because they aren't in the industry already is up to you, but it seems a bit extreme. I like the upfront order okay. It disuades people who aren't in it for the long haul I guess. Telling us that you are going to close our account if we don't raise our prices is also extreme and frankly, isn't in your business' best interests. When someone is supplying a service that is relied on and that service is dropped, the need remains and will be filled, by someone else if necessary. Is it possible to raise your prices for different customers? This would solve your problem as well. If you think someone is "low balling", put them on a different pricing plan. If they have a 1% markup and everone else gets it for 15% cheaper, they are going to end up about the same. If they start bringing in more and more business, then you can evaluate them again and reset their price plan if you want. Again, I want to thank you for having an open forum to talk about these issues. I think it is responsible and respectable. I hope my suggestions help.

# Paulie said on February 7, 2007 2:37 PM:

Well, I've always felt that Valor made it too easy to become a customer/drop shipper, so it seems they sort of created these problems for themselves where you have sites "low balling" the prices and such, thus hurting the real businesses that know what it takes to run a good store and make a good living. If every new signup was carefully screened from the start, you wouldn't have the problems you have now, and the true businesses and Valor would be much better off. The fact that anyone could just come along, fill out your form and be in business just like that without being scrutinized is a little negligent. Also, the huge flash intro "WE DROPSHIP" and "NO MINIMUM ORDER" looks amateurish, and it probably encourages the amount of loser signups you get as well. When you're a wholesaler, it's not necessary to hype it up like that; the retailers will still come to you as long as you sell good products at good pricing and provide good customer service.

# Ben said on February 7, 2007 2:48 PM:

Paulie,  It's as easy as it is to get an account with us because it's about that easy or easier with most of our competition.  So we can make it harder and watch all the business go elsewhere or do the same.  This is why we are where we are at.  We're going to make it a little harder.  Hopefully, the competition will follow.  I doubt they will, they will probably see it as an opportunity to get some business.  So it's a very tough line not to cross.  And as for the 'amateurish' intro, same deal.  Most people advertis they drop shipping if they do it, so why wouldn't we?  

# Mike Noland said on February 7, 2007 6:16 PM:

Ben, I'm a little concerned at the apparrent hostility towards small, beginning on-line marketers being expressed by some of your bloggers. Maybe they already had an established business or had one handed to them or had lots of capital to start one, well good for them. Some of us out here are working hard at starting a new business with every intent of making it profitable and lasting. I'm more than willing to follow the rules and pay whatever fees are necessary. Being new however, I would like some guidance as to where else I can go for pictures/descriptions and what defines "low-balling" so that I don't ruffle any feathers or make your job more difficult. I also understand that it's not your business to train me in business but if you can at least tell me where to get the information I need, I'll surely be a better customer for you; hopefully for a long time. What do you think?

# Shade said on February 8, 2007 10:10 AM:

Mike, For us, descriptions and pictures come from the product. We write our own descriptions and take most of our pictures. How can we do this? Easy. We stock our product. I can't really say what constitutes low-balling, but I do know that 10% below suggested retail is a common price point for manufacturers who have a minimum advertised price policy. Suggested retail usually averages around twice the wholesale price. Some companies' suggested retail prices are a little more, some a little less. The problem dealers are those who figure that since it only takes five minutes of filling out a form on Valor's site to fill an order, they can live with a two or three dollar profit on an item that should be good for a lot more. It is true that most dealers who take that route don't last very long, but there are always others to take their place. That means stocking, full-time dealers have to lower prices to stay competitive and hope that better customer service is enough to keep customers coming back. The sad fact, tho, is that many internet shoppers are looking for the lowest price and nothing else matters. We've been selling on the internet for over 10 years and staying competitive price-wise has been a problem for quite a while, so I'm sorry if we sound a bit hostile towards newcomers who want to jump into the business and let someone else do 99% of the work for them while cutting prices to a couple of bucks above wholesale.

# Ray Kenton said on February 8, 2007 5:07 PM:

i have been selling on the internet for 10 years, i have not got rich, but do make a good 2nd income. everyone that has made a post here are competitors, i sell for the most profit i can and still be reasonable and competitive. i see some things coming from valor selling double, some cheaper than what i can buy it for. ? i do sell some items cheap , as a draw to my site. i do buy from other wholesalers that sell the same products (united cutlery) (smnw) (fish33) some retail closeouts. i do not see how any regulation could work or be implimented, besides it seems un- american to me. i,m 61 and come from the old school. i like valor, they are good people, i hope they do not goof things up. i have no problem with the new dropship fee, it was overdue. PS i do stock items and have 4 display cases full of collectibles in an antique mall, zippos knifes hard to find items. does ok! a little concerned ! ray

# Ben said on February 8, 2007 8:03 PM:

The last thing I want to do is be the price police. More manufacturers need to have MAP pricing.  We can't really decide what an acceptable price is on any item unless the manufacturer sets a MAP price.

# coyote said on February 11, 2007 8:50 PM:

I don't drop ship but now you have me concerned. So If I do drop ship, I'm paying the same $2.50 for a drop ship of $15 as I would an order for $600 sent to me? I guess I don't get it. You guys are obviously irritated by people drop shipping an item at a time, and man, I don't balme you, I think I would stay up nights thinking about it. I would love to buy $1000 worth but I can't move your products that fast. I have a nitch with a couple of your items but if someone else picks up on it, I'm dead. So what's up with this?

# Robert said on February 12, 2007 10:34 AM:

MAP pricing. It seems to me that some people are not aware that Valor already posts MAP pricing for many items. It is in the Database load. Coyote, if you are having an item shipped directly to you do not use the drop ship option. Then you do not pay a drop ship fee. Don't bug Ben about images. It is not his department. I personally have spent hundreds of hour collecting images. I have written to many of the manufacturers about product images and then generally happy to comply. The manufacturers know that a picture greatly helps sell a product. Lawrence. Submitting URL's to Valor is a little heavy. That would chew up tons of space and time for Valor. Personally my sales have been down 50% since Christmas. And I know it is in part to some people out there really cutting prices. I won't lower my prices anymore, but I can also depend on my two other web stores to bring in the income while I wait it out. For you stockers. Do you realize you already get a better price than drop shippers? You can get a break on not paying the drop ship fee and you get a much better deal on shipping charges when you have it shipped to your store. I have been selling on line with Valor for 3 years now and I have seen quite a few on line stores come and go that are obviously selling Valors line. robert

# Robert said on February 12, 2007 10:45 AM:

What it really comes down to people is MONEY!!! The drop ship fee makes sense because it may prevent people from placing a $10 order. A $10 order is a waste of time for Valor because it cannot possibly pay for itself. At least with a $2.50 DS fee they can offset the little orders some. I personally have $20 min order on my site because I really do not want to waste my time with a tiny profit. Like I said, it comes down to one thing. MONEY!!! We are all here to make it. Including VALOR. For us it means drawing customers to our store. For Valor it means getting as many people to sell their products as possible. They make just as much selling a Daiwa Procaster to a nickel dimer as they do to a store that has a 40% markup. Well if they have 100 dropshippers out there competing to sell their product as compared to 20 it does not take much to figure out that more means more. MONEY MONEY MONEY So please lay off Valor and Ben. It really is not their problem how much money you make. Their problem is worrying about how much money they make. Don't take me wrong. They also do a good job at customer support. Roberta and Roger have been wonderful to me in the past and still continue. They have excellent customer service. If you get pissed off at other sellers and leave Valor don't worry. Someone else will step in to take your place. Where I live the mom and pop shops do ok because they have a loyal customer base. Heck, I still buy a good share of my own fishing gear from they bait store near my house. Robert

# Robert said on February 12, 2007 10:46 AM:

Sorry about spelling and grammar errors on previous posts. Just trying to type fast. Robert

# Shade said on February 12, 2007 12:26 PM:

Robert, While I won't suppose to speak for Valor, I think it should make a difference to them who they are selling to. Sure they make the same profit regardless of who sells it, but are those 100 drop shippers going to reliable, loyal customers or will they sell a couple of items and then disappear? Personally, I think having 20 customers that you can depend on for a regular stream of orders is more desireable than 100 customers who sign up and are gone in a month or two. For that reason, while it is not Valor's "problem" how much money their customers make, it does behoove them to keep the customers who are marking up their product enough to stay in business happy. Of course, I may be way off base, but I think any business would do better with a loyal customer base whether it is Valor or your mom and pop bait shop.

# Robert said on February 13, 2007 4:37 PM:

I apologize I was a little hasty. I do not speak for Valor. I have been drop shipping with Valor for over 3 years now. And I can happily say that at least 60% of my current business is return customers or referrals. And personally I would rather see all the here today gone tomorrow drop shippers not around. They take up to much of Valors time and such. The one of the worst parts about the short term sellers is that they tend to make a bad name for on line shopping. Maybe Valor should remove their name from some of the drop ship directories for awhile. robert

# Ben said on February 13, 2007 4:50 PM:

We didn't put ourselves in most, if not all of the drop ship directories.  I have received emails over time asking if we mind being listed and I will rarely turn down a free listing.  The problem for us is who's to say that we don't get the next amazon from one of those customers.  Many of you found us through one of those lists and are still with us today and doing quite well.

While I may complain and 'whine' about drop shippers,  there are a bunch of you that do just fine and don't cause us any headaches at all and we appreciate all of you.

# Clark Lambert said on February 15, 2007 12:59 PM:

I just noticed the note about the drop shipping charges being changed. I have been having someone else help with keeping this site's products up to date for me so I missed the discussions before. I want to have all my prices fair but still be in the competition. Some of your products have a MSRP but others do not. What is a fair mark up over our cost for your products? Thanks for your help

# Ben said on February 15, 2007 1:09 PM:

Each manufacturer is different.  Most are a 100% markup over dealer makes suggested retail.  Some are less.  We put it in the system when it's available.  It is becomeing more and more available as manufacturer's realize it helps their prices to be set correctly online.  I have updated a few knife lines this week that all have suggested retail now.

# James R. Henry said on February 18, 2007 10:45 PM:

I like the comments that I have been reading, but must comment. I have been with Valor for only a year, and have found their customer service to be great. I work a 40-hour-a-week job, and hardly find time to build my Website. I have done some for others, but my time has gone to helping others. Some of us can only buy a little at a time, for now, buit in the future, we plan on growing big. I don't believe that any business would like to be there one day, and gone the next, but time has been taken from their opportunity in selling their own products. As a business man for about 20 years, I find that keeping a business going is difficult, especially when you have the bigger stores lowering prices, and out-selling you. I also find that in a smaller town, people are more willing to go to the local market for what they need, rather than wait a few days, or so. I live near the Ocean in Morro Bay, and find that the fisherman are in need of products today, and can't wait. So, there's business that I am losing, and can't help it.

# Clyde ( Not the Valor Clyde) said on February 18, 2007 10:54 PM:

This is very interesting. The whole point of drop shipping is to appeal to the little guy that cannot or does not have the means to invest in a large amount of inventory but he/she has the time energy and gusto to invest in marketing a product . They also put a huge barricade between the vendors and the end customer by providing the end consumer with customer support and other end customer relations It also appeals to the vendors and wholesalers that cannot or does not have the means to invest in marketing or simply just don't want to. Wholesalers such as Valor can focus on their relations with manufacturers without having to deal with the one z two z consumer on a daily basis. When this type of relationship works it works well. One hand washes the other. Unfortunately some vendors are to "loose" when it comes to who they develop relationships with in this type of business model. So that brings us to this type of blog and this attempt to "weed" out the poor relations. My partner and I are guilty for sure of the cut throat approach. We have learned the hard way that this type of approach to this kind of business for sure is unhealthy to all. The problem is that to many people like us , spent an afternoon reading some guys "guide to being a successful drop ship retailer" think that they are business men after wards with out having any idea as to what they are doing. These people are the ones that are killing it for all. Not Valor and not the hard working people that are trying to conduct business in the right way We have been in business for a year and have learned that drop shipping does have a place in the retail world but it for sure is not the " magic bullet" to becoming a successful retailer. I have seen that more and more vendors are cracking down on this and are imposing high fees, account set up charges, volume limits , minimum order amounts ect. We are now a starting to stock best selling items and drop shipping the least popular items due to the fact that we can not afford to hold on to inventory for to long of a time. We have disciplined our selves in the marketing efforts as well and cutting out the " cut throat" type mentality. This has been hard but we are doing it and are now seeing some rewards for our work. Key word is "WORK". To all the retailers reading this, nothing in life is for free. Period! Invest time into your business and re invest profits to grow it. Be very discipline in what you do and how you do it. Create a business plan and stick to it. Educate your self and do your research. They are so many inexpensive tools out there small business can use. We take full advantage to some of these services.. Example.. did you know that the US postal Service will pick up a package for FREE and you can tell them where to pick it up like say " on my deck in the rear" ect. And get this, packaging materials such as boxes and labels are free! Drop shipping is great. It allows us to sell items that we currently simply cannot afford to stock. At least not just yet!

# Clyde ( Not the valor Clyde) said on February 18, 2007 11:53 PM:

I think it is ok. I like the having a " Real" web site idea with real phone numbers and emails..We are currently working on our site using oscommerce, an open source etail solution. Works for us since my Partner and i are both corporate programmers by day :). I think valor is on the right track here.. personally i liked the 5 dollar charge.

# Ken said on February 27, 2007 9:13 AM:

I like the prices and the service. I approve of the fee so that way we can all make some money. The 10% over cost people really get to me. I mean how can you assess a real value to a knife that is 440c or sv30 when wallyworld sells it for alot less. Kershaw knives being a good example. The small to midsize business suffers. All midsize business suffer when it comes to dealing with the big box retailers who can mark up to a .03 profit level and sustain sales traffic for an extended period of time.  All Valor is doing is helping everyones margin a little more than before.

GREAT JOB!

# Jeff said on March 2, 2007 11:57 AM:

The thing that brought me to Valor was that I could get started in the sporting goods business on a shoe string budget. The product and drop ship fees were some of the lowest I could find. If they were not, I would have gone with someone else. No one making posts here can look me in the eye and tell me they searched for anything different. But now that some of you are doing well, you want to do away with the little man, or woman, trying to get started. Selfish! It's called Capitalism. If I sell cheaper than you I get the business. Competition keeps prices low for all of us. I understand that as Valor grows so will their costs and ours. However, this is America, and attempting to control what I sell and for how much will cost you a customer. Just set your prices and drop ship costs for as low as you can and let it go! If your competitive you keep your customers. If not, we go somewhere cheaper. That's the only solution here people! P.S. Store Fronts - What's your problem! You already get the product cheaper than drop shippers! You have no say in this issue! My suggestion, everyone, to include store fronts, pay a $2.50 handling fee. That way everyone pays the same for the product and Valor covers their costs!

# Shade said on March 7, 2007 7:35 AM:

Jeff, Actually, I can easily look your in the eye and tell you I searched for something different. I found Valor before they were on a thousand different drop shipper lists. The drop shipping was a bonus, not the reason for doing business with them. And the longer we do business with them, the more that is true. Their customer service is the best of the several suppliers we use. If they quit doing drop shipping tomorrow, the amount of business we do with them wouldn't change. I'm tempted to say I wish they could be our sole supplier, but depending on a single supplier wouldn't be a smart business decision. We are currently enjoying the faster shipping, so we are using them for some drop shipping on more expensive items, but we still keep at least one of each of those items in stock just in case. Of course we are trying to do away with the little man just getting started. We are also trying to get rid of everyone else. That's the goal of competition - to draw customers from your competition. If you're successful enough, you'll draw enough customers to force your competition to close their doors. But one thing you'll learn, is that a certain profit margin is necessary to stay in business. Working your butt off for minimal profit gets old. Fortunately, there are still customers out there who understand that customer service is worth something. You can't lowball your prices for long and still provide good customer service. I also find that customers who shop purely based on price tend to be the biggest pains in the butt. Your comment to store fronts is wrong, by the way. Stocking dealers do not get their product cheaper. We pay the same $2.50 handling fee as drop shippers and have the added expense of the shipping charge to get the merchandise to us if our order doesn't amount to $500.00. I'd like to say I wish you luck, but since you appear to be one of those lowballing dealers trying to drive ME out of business, I can't really do that with a straight face.

# Jeff said on March 7, 2007 3:52 PM:

Shade, I did not mention your name in my post, I just stated my overall opinion. However, since you took the liberty to attack me in a personal manner, I offer the following retort: 1. Don't tell me what I will learn. You don't know a damn thing about me or what I know. Oh, and thanks for the uncommon insight into the fact that a business has to have a certain profit margin to stay in business. You don't know what my operating expenses are, thus the reason I may not need as high of a profit margin as you to maintain the same profit levels. For example, if one pays a professional to build and maintain their website, this is an overhead. But if one has the ability to do this themselves, then it is just part of doing business. The point? If we are not looking for the cheapest means to acquire our products and reduce our overhead, then we have one of two choices: A. Sell at a higher price and whine because no one else is doing the same. B. Reduce the costs of operating so these savings can be passed onto the customer, or used to increase profits margins. The point: If one wants to be competitive they should look for the cheapest suppliers and set up their businesses to operate as inexpensively as possible. Business Basics 101! 2. Who said I was "lowballing". One thing YOU'LL learn is that most people call that an assumption. When one lowballs they make a deliberately low offer to get customers knowing they cannot actually sell the product at that price. This technique was originated on the car lots to get customers in, and then the salesman would talk them into the higher price; the price they really intended to charge. Therefore, this term has no place in our industry as I know no one who advertises one price, but then charges another at the counter or upon checkout. 3. Most store fronts who buy in quantity get the product cheaper than drop shippers, and after spreading the shipping costs over many items it still allows store fronts to sell cheaper in most cases. If you don't find this to be the case, then I suggest you re-evaluate your logistics, or buy in higher a quantity. 4. You find customers who shop purely based on price to be a pain in your butt? Well, you just insulted about 95% of your customer base, and I bet they would like to know you feel that way. 5. You will do away with the little man by offering a good product, at the lowest price possible, with good customer service. Any other way, such as bad mouthing them on a personal level only proves that you are immoral and unkind, none of which are the qualities that a customer looks for in those they do business with. Therefore, I wish YOU luck, since you APPEAR to be one of those arrogant dealers who think they are smarter than everyone else.

# Shade said on March 8, 2007 7:46 AM:

Jeff, Well, I will concede one point. You're right about the term lowball. I won't use it anymore. So let's look at your other points. 1. You misquoted what I said. I said you need a certain (i.e., higher) profit margin to offer good customer service. It is sad how long one may be able to stay in business by simply offering the lowest price with crappy customer service. 2. Since you brought up making assumptions, let's look at yours. You assumed that everyone else decided to use Valor for the same reasons as you did. You even went so far as to suggest that if they denied that, they would be lying. But I do apologize for suggesting you might learn something. I take it back. You probably won't learn anything. 3. Regarding your contention that stocking dealers get their product cheaper, you're still off. First, you originally said "My suggestion, everyone, to include store fronts, pay a $2.50 handling fee. " Your suggestion is already Valor policy. As far as spreading the shipping price goes, no matter how much you buy, the incoming shipping charge will never be zero per item. Since drop shipping dealers pay no incoming shipping charges, they pay less per item. And while stocking dealers don't pay Valor the $2.50 handling fee on orders we ship ourselves, we have expenses involved with shipping that drop shipping dealers don't have. 4. Here you are making another assumption. You seem to shop based purely on price so you assume most everyone else does. Fortunately, that is not the case, although I will admit their is a depressingly large number who do. 5. You're repeating what I said. The only difference is I think we would disagree on "the lowest price possible". I'd be an idiot to think that someone was going to close their doors based on what some stranger says about them and my critique of your comments and your business model was not intended to do away with the "little man." I honestly think that the little man will do that all by himself.

# Jeff said on March 8, 2007 3:06 PM:

Shade, 1. You said, "But one thing you'll learn, is that a certain profit margin is necessary to stay in business." Where is my misquote? This statement says nothing about customer service. Sure, you continued on to talk about customer service after making this statement, but your latest response to this statement is nothing more than an attempt to cover your arrogant statement. If you had said, "But one thing you'll learn, is that a certain profit margin is necessary to stay in business and offer good customer service", then I would have misquoted you. Additionally, you keep saying that because someone offers low prices, their customer service is bad. Just because you can't make it work, does not mean that rest of us can't. Chew on this for awhile Shade; Offering your products at a low price is good customer service. 2. Splitting hairs now Shane. Yes, I did assume that everyone who picked Valor did so because of their low prices. If I am wrong, then I apologize to those individuals. I assumed that the logical and intelligent people in our industry were looking for the lowest prices to maximize their profits, or pass these savings on to their customers to build a stronger customer base. So, your right, I won't be learning anything from you on this point. 3. Your right about the $2.50 fee being Valor's policy. Thanks for pointing that out! I am happy to see that Valor agrees with me on this point and they are using logic in their business approach. Thanks for pointing out that the shipping cost will never be zero; another uncommon insight from Shade. But, perhaps I am missing something. If you are a store front, what expenses do you incur to ship? What are you shipping yourself? Do you not order from Valor and then stock your shelves what the product? And if you are taking orders over the phone and mailing them around the country from your store, why wouldn't you drop ship these items do avoid paying the shipping costs twice? I would understand if you were stocking a warehouse, taking orders from your website or store, and then shipping the items out from the warehouse. But if you were doing it this way, quantity would be the only way you could do it economically as I have explained before. It may surprise you to know this, but I too stock items from Valor. I am not just a lowballing drop shipper. Now, I shouldn't even do this, but I can't allow you to confuse or mislead someone in the industry, as I also look out for the industry and not just myself. Here is an example of how stocking dealers can get the product cheaper, and sell it cheaper: If I buy one knife, I will pay for the cost, plus shipping charge on that knife. For example, lets say I buy a knife for $14.00. The shipping cost is $4.19 plus the $2.50 handling fee. That makes the total for one knife $20.69 to my store. Now lets say I buy 7 knives at $14.00 totaling $98.00. The shipping is now $11.88 plus the $2.50 handling fee. Dividing the shipping cost and handling fee among the seven knives, my cost of one knife is now only $16.04. It's magic! Now, if you choose to ship the item from your store after purchasing such a low quantity, why would you do this, it's not my fault you have to raise your prices. Thus, the reason I can now sell cheaper then you. 4. Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone with my assumption that they are looking for cheaper ways to operate their business. 5. I have repeated nothing you said, and probably never will. Your backwards business opinions are not mine, so don't try and ride my coat tails now. I again quote you, " Of course we are trying to do away with the little man just getting started." Trying to back peddle out of your arrogant comments again Shade? Furthermore, my business model? What do you know about my business model? I quote you yet again, "I'd be an idiot to think that someone was going to close their doors based on what some stranger says about them and my critique of your comments and your business model was not intended to do away with the "little man." I honestly think that the little man will do that all by himself." If the little man is going to do away with himself, where will the big man come from? Did you have this attitude as a little man? If you are a big man now as you would have me believe, which I doubt, then you have surely forgotten who you once were, or where you came from. Either way, you offer nothing positive for this industry. Morality is what we need in this industry, not arrogance.

# Ben said on March 8, 2007 3:25 PM:

Ok, enough is enough.  I appreciate the comments back and forth, but I don't want to see it escalate into anything else.  Agree to disagree..  

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